"Crossing Euphrates"

On that day Jehovah concluded with Abram a covenant, saying: “To your seed I will give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates." -- Genesis 15:18


According to the Bible, Jehovah provided much needed INSPIRED LEADERSHIP in the first century and in ancient times (like in the days of Moses), and yet are we to believe He refuses to see the need of providing it in our day and time??? Does this make sense to you? Does this seem consistent to you? (See John 16:13, 14)
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:29 pm 
My Experience When I Learned of the NGO-UN Situation[/size]

Part I.

Here is what happened to me when I learned about the Watchtower's connection in being NGOs for the UN Organization, and how I found "Living Waters" finally.

I have been a baptized Jehovah's Witness since April 7, 1979, married to an unbeliever and have raised two sons "in the truth" as we JW's called it. But, right around the fall of 2004, a sister in my local congregation started to mention to me that the Watchtower had joined the United Nations. Right away I thought, you're kidding! How could that possibly be? I guess I didn't really believe that could be true, so I dismissed it initially. But she kept on telling me this and mentioning it, and telling me I could read about it online at a website for JW's (not this one). Well, I didn't want to go on the website because of being warned by Watchtower not to go to apostate sites, which I just assumed this was. Then she told me that actually, the Watchtower has also been reported to own stock in a company that makes engines for some kind of warheads, and it makes lots of money with that stock. That was it, I had to find out, because that was totally disgusting to me and I had to research it to see if this could be possibly true... and if it was, I was going to tell everybody and get to the bottom of this!

Well, I did check out the website which brought out much that was wrong with the Jehovah's Witnesses Organization, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I was in utter shock- :shock: -... actually I could say it was a grief process that lasted several months. The website I was reading on brought out these sins, but still it kept telling everybody they should stay in Watchtower, which started to sound really dumb to me if all this was true. Meanwhile, more and more was being exposed leading to a pile of evidence against Watchtower. Now I began thinking, how would Jehovah be feeling about this organization I had been involved with for so long? For so long I was involved in telling the public, my family, my worldly husband and his family all about the "good news of God's Kingdom". I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses and as such I engaged in the field ministry, took the Watchtower and Awake magazines to people, and now only to find out they are involved in all of this! Boy oh boy!!!! I felt suddenly that I was guilty of spreading lies, and that I was also guilty because I had accepted these things so easily. :oops: I should have known Jehovah better, especially since I remember wondering why we had suddenly been placing magazines that featured favorable articles about the United Nations, and I just shrugged that off and placed them with people at the doors. I was disseminating pro-UN propaganda, and didn't even realize it!

So, the website I was reading on began to make me very uneasy, worried even. You see, it began to get confusing listening to half of the people who posted their comments say to leave the organization, and the other half of the people saying no, we should stay and let Jehovah handle this. It went on and on like this, with no real decisive conclusion being reached by anybody, and they are still to this day doing the same thing! Well, I know Jehovah is not a God of confusion, so I started to pray to him to help me know what his will is. I begged him to direct me because I did not want to displease him if I left the Kingdom Hall, but I didn't want to displease him if I stayed at the Kingdom Hall. I wanted to do exactly what he wanted me to do, but I didn't know what that was. By the way, I really didn't think I could sit there and listen to the things they were saying, like we were in "Spiritual Paradise"... :x , and how could I take the magazines out to people any more, and if I got assigned a talk in the theocratic ministry school, how could I do my assignment if it involved any kind of false teaching?

Then my friend who told me about all of this got an email from an old friend, and that friend was a member of the YORWW Congregation. She started looking at this website and told me about it. My sister and I decided it sounded different, but that we would read the "Welcome Page" and read every scripture to see what it was saying and if it made scriptural sense to us. Well, we did so, and we really liked the reasonings and here was our answer. :D It told us that Jehovah has left Jehovah's Witnesses and gone into the Wilderness because of their apostasy, their spiritual adultery. That was the answer! It didn't take us long to start to read some articles on Living Waters Forum, and then we ordered the book The "Report". It took us a little while to go throught the book because I wanted to look up the scriptures. It is like a total revealing of Jehovah's will and of what the future holds. :!: This was not confusing, it was decisive, it led us to what Jehovah's will is. We both wrote letters of disassociation from the WTS, of which my personal copy of this letter has been posted on the net for you to read. (Please see my DA letter from WTS.)

I am so grateful to know all this, I consider myself most privileged, indeed. This is the most awesome thing, and the revelations are truly a revealing of what is to come soon. I would encourage anybody to take the time to really examine these articles along with the Bible! Watchtower does not have a monopoly on the truth, they are not Jehovah's channel ANY LONGER!!! Do not listen to them when they try to tell you that you are reading APOSTATE literature...actually they are the ones that are apostate! But they will work on your guilt because they do not want to have anybody learn the truth about "the truth"!!! This is what I have found out through my experience, and this is how I found Living Waters.

End of Part I.

 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:30 pm 
My Experience When I Learned of the NGO-UN Situation![/size]

Part II.

When I first found out about this NGO thing, I was reading on e-W, and my oldest son who is baptized and is married into a large family in the truth, came over one evening. I wanted to show him this issue that I just learned about and so I showed him the webpage. (BTW, I don't recommended to do it this way!!!)

He immediately said "mom, what are you even doing on this webpage, it's apostate!" I barely was able to explain that the Watchtower had joined the UN, because he said "I don't even want to hear it." I reasoned with him later that he should at least hear the issue before deciding it was apostate, but he wouldn't discuss it, he was scared. Later he did tell me he'd look into it, but I don't know if he ever really did. It didn't take the elders any time at all...they went and talked to him right away when I brought the issue to them, even though he's in another congregation. They went to him and told him that his aunt and I were involved in apostate teachings. He came over about a month after to return some equipment he borrowed, and both myself and his aunt were here, and we got to talk to him for about 45 minutes. He had such a strange demeanor, it was like he was scared and angry at the same time, argued with us and has never talked to us since then. :cry:

After that conversation at first, I felt bad about raising him as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. But since that time, I've had time to reflect and realize that I really did the right thing...teaching him to become a Jehovah's witness, a spiritual "Israelite" before God, and training him for a possible role as a future anointed "Priest" and "King" before God, if he can prove true to his calling, and "endure to the end," through the "Great Tribulation" if necessary. (Joel 2:28, 29; Matt. 24:13; Rev. 7:9-14)

So, I hope what I have told him so far about the Watchtower joining the UN and how it's wrong will at least give him a heads up when all the JW's go through the trampling and are faced with either leaving Watchtower or willingly submitting to worship of the beast and the dragon when 2/3 give their full support to the political governments of the world. (Zech. 13:8, 9; Rev. 11:2; 13:5-7) I hope he will be in the 1/3 who will finally recognize that Jehovah is God and that he demands exclusive devotion!!!

My other son, who left home at 19 and quit going to the meetings and is not baptized had been the one who has given me the most grief, not remaining in "the truth". But when I told him about this, he listened. He asked questions. He said to me "mom, this is horrible, what about all those brothers and sisters in Malawi who wouldn't buy a political card and many of them were slaughtered...what about them? So the Watchtower teaches them not to get involved in politics and then they go and join the UN? How hypocritical is that"? I have been able to explain a lot of what I am learning to him, and I hope that he will respond. He said he'd read on this website, but I am not sure if he has yet. So there is hope that he will learn more about this and act on what he's learning. He said he had many questions when he was younger about the teachings, but he never had mentioned any to me at that time. So it has opened up some discussion, which has not occured before this ever since he left home.

I have hope for both my sons, that they will listen in time. I know it took me a while for this to sink in before I could accept what had happened, but it's better now than later!

End of Part II.

 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:32 pm 
My Experience When I Learned of the NGO-UN Situation! [/size]

Part III.

After thinking about a period of time spanning 28 years that I attended the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, I can truthfully say the that I feel the environment created in my local Kingdom Hall was mentally a very unhealthy one.

Let me tell you why I say this...

I worked for the state of Minnesota at a mental hospital in a unit for mentally ill children and adolescents that have behavior problems. I worked directly with the patients, and so had the opportunity for much training and education. It helped me to recognizing what good mental health was and what contributed to it. We were able to analize on an individual basis where problems were for these patients and we worked with individualized behavior programs with each child who needed one. We also ran "groups" that included instruction and training to help recognize what types of behaviors were socially acceptable and what types of behaviors were NOT socially acceptable, and why. This training was helpful for kids who may have grown up in very disfunctional families and may have been lacking social skills, making them vulnerable and likely to have problems interacting with others.

Some topics included how to react to situations, what proper bounaries are and how to let someone know when they are crossing boundaries, anger management, how to reduce being vulnerable to others, relationship problems, how to deal with family issues, how to communicate needs to others appropriately, recognition of passive, aggressive or assertive behavior, etc. We had worksheets to use with the kids and the lessons were basic and easy to grasp, and there were many of them, the list I mentioned off the top of my head is not by any means complete.

In doing my job, I was exposed to principles of Behavior Analysis, and learned that when you work with a patient, you have to draw information from all parts of a person's life...we were taught to use a modality called "Bio-Phycho-Social". That simply means that, when analyzing problem behaviors, you look at a persons medical health, mental health, and a persons social environment. This is because all these parts of a persons life combine to affect their mental health. You may, by a process of elimination, be able to find contributing factors to whatever problems exist, if any.

Now, it began to be easier for me to analyze what was happening at the Kingdom Hall...why these negative feelings? My worship at the Kingdom Hall was a major part of my life, taking up hours of my time each week in five meetings a week as well as service and other activities. So this environment was bound to impact my life due to the amount of time being spent in this environment. It has the potential for good or for bad. So, what was it turning out to be?

Truthfully, some of the feelings I had been experiencing at the Kingdom Hall were ones of "exclusion" as a person. Instead of feeling that I truly belonged, that I was "included", many times I felt "excluded" when someone would just walk by and ignore me. When I could walk into the Kingdom Hall and know exactly who I could go up to and greet as well as knowing which individuals would not respond to my greeting in a friendly way, that was wrong. I knew which friends would sincerely say "HI" to me and which friends I really hadn't spoken with for months and months...or longer! Or here's one...my personal experience! As a mother of two sons I asked an elder for some help in encouraging my sons. Now, I raised them in the truth in a divided home from the time they were infants, I studied with them and took them to meetings and out in service, etc. Now they were in their later teens and in need of some encouragement because I could see a need. So when I asked this elder for some spiritual help with my boys, I was told by this elder that he had a "problem" with me asking him to encourage my boys. He said that I had the same meetings as everybody else, the same magazines and publications that everybody else had, and that he just had a "problem" with what I was asking. WoW! What a slap in the face from a "shepherd"...read Ezekiel chapter 34:1-10 if you want to know what kind of a shepherd I thought he was! Do you tell a mother who is trying her best laboring under the adverse conditions of an unbelieving mate and wanting desperately for her boys to be successful in serving Jehovah? No! You better not try and tell a mother who loves her sons that! Could this be a "lack of love" in the congretation that I was experiencing? I could begin to see why there were many with depression in the congregetion. This was truly an environment that was not positive...it actually contributed to poor mental health! Oh no, how could this be? Jehovah's house? The same place where we are told over and over that is "spiritual paradise"? Hummmmmm....

Now some may say, "this must be nothing but a sensitive complainer". Maybe there was something wrong with me... No, these are my observations over a long period of time, how many of you can agree that you have observed this or something similar as well?

The groups and clicks were obvious. The "social haves" and "social have-nots" were clearly defined. They were based on a "class distinction" system that was determine by things such as money or lack of money, position or lack of any position. Who was "important", and who was ignored in the congregation? Who are you related to...or is your family/husband in the "truth" or not, because sometimes that makes a difference in how you are treated and whether you are outright abused by the elders or not! How many times do you observe brothers and sisters with MONEY hanging out together...taking cruises and vacations and inviting one another to their homes... Now we all know what Jehovah teaches about that...let's see the scripture that we've all been taught...

(Luke 14:12-14)
12 Next he proceeded to say also to the man that invited him: "When you spread a dinner or evening meal, do not call your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors. Perhaps sometime they might also invite you in return and it would become a repayment to you. 13 But when you spread a feast, invite poor people, crippled, lame, blind; 14 and you will be happy, because they have nothing with which to repay you. For you will be repaid in the resurrection of the righteous ones."

I began to really think about the fact that there were a large number of brothers and sisters that were having problems with depression. A large number. I wondered about this because it seemed like that was a growing problem right inside the Kingdom Hall. I wondered why this was so, we should be a joyfull people! Nothing but joyfull!

(Psalm 89:15-16)
15 Happy are the people knowing the joyful shouting. O Jehovah, in the light of your face they keep walking. 16 In your name they are joyful all day long And in your righteousness they are exalted.

Hey maybe that's what's missing...maybe there is just not enough righteousness among Jehovah's people! JEHOVAH'S RIGHTEOUSNESS, that is. Perhaps the scripture at Matthew 24:12 really comes into focus for us now. Let's take a look at it...

(Matthew 24:12)
12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off.

I've thought about this scripture many times and wondered how it applied...I was taught it applied to the world all the years at the KH. But recently I have been taught by the YORWW Congregation that this scripture is applied within the Christian Congregation itself! See, the "increasing of lawlessness [Greek: anomia]" which refers to the defying of God's law, it does not refer to the common breaking of man's laws as we see is common in the world. Yes, now it has some significance for us. And, if you are a good bible student you will be able to go check the word for love in this verse. Now, we as JW's know, there are several different types of love. We are also aware that "agape love" is the love among Christians. This is NOT refering to the world. This word for love shows it is within the CONGREGATION that this scripture is talking about. Not the world. Do we truly see the "love" of the greater number among Jehovah's Witnesses cooling off? ABSOLUTELY!!!

See, when you walk up to a brother and sister standing there at the Kingdom Hall, and you attempt to say "hi" and start a conversation, and they look down their nose at you and turn and continue talking to the person standing beside them and not even acknowledge you, that is very socially unacceptable. When you can see a brother or sister and KNOW that if you say a greeting to them that you will get an arrogant look or they may just walk on and ignore you, then there is a LACK OF LOVE GOING ON! There is some VERY SOCIALLY UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR GOING ON AMONG GOD'S NAME PEOPLE!!!

I have personally experienced some of these things, as well as heard experiences from others. Could anybody say that I am being unfair about these charges? That this kind of thing never happens in the Kingdom Halls? No! These things are way too common in our Kingdom Halls!!! Truly a lack of love being manifest.

Let's talk about gossip and slander as being unacceptable behavior. It is very harsh and damaging, and very UNLOVING and very COMMON, WAY TOO COMMON!!! Brothers and sisters at the Kingdom Hall need some kind of instruction as to what proper boundaries means. For instance, when someone gets pulled into the "back room" for an unknown reason, how many times will people be talking about it as they are in the room speaking to the elders. Have you ever been questioned about "wow, what's up?" as you are leaving the back room? You don't even have a chance to take a breath and someone is nosing into your business. That really is a personal issue that you would discuss with your close friends/family members if you care to. But it is a "boundary issue" being violated if you don't have the privacy that you should have, being "attacked" as you step out of the back room. How very inappropriate, and I've seen it happen.

Now, remember, this mental health training I received from THE WORLD, brothers and sisters. Many in the world recognize what people need in their environment to be mentally healthy. They recognize that we need respect as a person as well as proper treatment as individuals to be truly happy. There are appropriate ways to treat one another, and boundary issues need to be respected.

Do you mean to tell me that the environment at the Kingdom Hall where Jehovah is supposed to be can't be at least as good as what the world's standards are, what the world knows to be proper? How has it sunk as low as this? What is the reason we are seeing this kind of thing, worldwide, if Jehovah is supposed to be here among us? Why?

So far, I have not even mentioned the serious WICKED THINGS or LAWLESSNESS that we know are happening among God's Name People. Need I innumerate those things? I can venture to say that my brothers and sisters reading this post can draw from their own experiences, their own knowledge of things that are wrong that have been going on inside their own local congregations. Then you take the UN/NGO sin, the child abuse problem, and who knows what else will be made known about what is going on inside the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact there are bible verses showing that Jehovah will not tolerate these conditions.

This woeful situation helped me to see that Jehovah has left the land. Consider the following verses:

(Ezekiel 9:9)
9 So he said to me: "The error of the house of Israel and Judah is very, very great, and the land is filled with bloodshed and the city is full of crookedness; for they have said, 'Jehovah has left the land, and Jehovah is not seeing.'. . .

(Deuteronomy 23:14)
14 For Jehovah your God is walking about within your camp to deliver you and to abandon your enemies to you; and your camp must prove to be holy, that he may see nothing indecent in you and certainly turn away from accompanying you.

I finally put two plus two together. The fact that the UN/NGO situation was spiritual adultery was my que to "get out of her"! Revelation 18:4 says "And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her, MY PEOPLE, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues." So that is what I did after I found that Jehovah is with the YORWW Congregation! You notice that Jehovah was talking to "HIS PEOPLE".

(Jeremiah 23:5-6)
5 "Look! There are days coming," is the utterance of Jehovah, "and I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will certainly reign and act with discretion and execute justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel itself will reside in security. And this is his name with which he will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness."

I would like to encourage you to keep reading here at Living Waters, because this is where Jehovah is! This is where "Divine Truth" is to be found and the answer to our question "what's going on at the Kingdon Hall" can be answered.

(John 8:32)
32 and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.". . .

End of Part III.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:36 pm 
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Hi Leslie,
I could begin to see why there were many with depression in the congregetion. This was truly an environment that was not positive...it actually contributed to poor mental health! Oh no, how could this be? Jehovah's house? The same place where we are told over and over that is "spiritual paradise"? Hummmmmm....
The following post seems to substantiate your thoughts and observations of many Jehovah's witnesses being utterly depressed these days...even those in high stations, like Circuit Overseer's wives and such.

Please consider the following comment taken from a popular JW Discussion Board recently under the title: Are Circuit Overseers Getting Discouraged. Please note the following:


A sister I know went out with the C.O.'s wife in service recently. Sister C.O. offered that she is frequently depressed and cries privately.

Meanwhile, her husband privately expresses dissatisfaction that so many rich brothers flaunt their wealth while preaching no college and theocratic poverty to others. Meanwhile, many of the elders I know seem as weak and worn out as the publishers they are supposed to lead. Surprizingly, many of these men are utterly dominated by their wives, to a degree that would seem unusual even in the 'world'.

I also have to wonder if C.O.'s generally have to 'be nice' - because cracking the whip may motivate some to just quit - or deepen the do nothing pretense that widely prevails. Cutting the 'dead wood' only works if you have new growth to take its place and I don't see much of that.

Get rid of that internet porn and video game and run the mikes and maybe we'll appoint you, brother!

Their facade maintainence comes at an ever higher price, these days.


link to above comments found @ http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/109442/1.ashx

Leslie, thanks for your insightful comments. :)


"....save both yourself and those who listen to you." -- 1 Timothy 4:16

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